We are best of friends.. I am going to start my practice.. Nobody is going to take women permanently in the army: Read all about Justice..

Justice Rekha Palli recently demitted office after serving as a judge of the Delhi High Court for nearly eight years..In this interview with Bar & Bench, Justice Palli talks about her struggles in the initial years of her career, challenges faced by women lawyers and judges, representation of women on the bench and in bar associations and more..Pallavi Saluja (PS): When you started out, you were already married and had two kids. It must have been quite a struggle. How did you manage your career and home in those days?.Justice Rekha Palli: I did my law and I got married within about 6 months. I practiced in Chandigarh for two years. Then we came back to Delhi in March of 1989. I became an Advocate-on Record (AoR) in March 1991 and started practice at the High Court in 1993. At that point, I already had a son and a daughter.It was very tough. I will not deny it because with small kids, it's so difficult. I think I was lucky, I had my sister around. My husband was cooperative. At that stage, my work was less, so I would go do one matter and come back. I was never out of the house from morning to night. That's the biggest advantage of this profession. If you are on your own, you can manage to do it. It was tough. .PS: What were the challenges you faced as a woman lawyer and later as a woman judge in a male-dominated profession? .Justice Palli: I faced more challenges as a woman lawyer, especially because initially, even our colleagues didn't take us seriously. Clients also had a big issue. They were not willing to trust women lawyers.The difficult part was not how to argue a case in court. The difficult part was how to get a client. That's why I initially started working on the Union of India panel; they did not really distinguish between a male and a female. If you are okay, they will give you work. So, that was the biggest challenge. It took about 10-15 years to really start getting clients on our own name. Now, things are changing, and I see younger women lawyers appearing in big cases, which shows that clients have started trusting them..The difficult part was not how to argue a case in court. The difficult part was how to get a client..As a judge in the initial one to one-and-a-half years, there were a few hiccups. Few judges felt that women judges have more things to handle (like family), but soon they realised these women judges mean business. We had big senior lawyers coming to our courts. I remember I was on the education roster and there was some medical council matter. When I would try to put questions, the senior would not take it well, but when you were firm and took decisions, they also realised.The senior lawyers would test me. I can never forget that a lawyer tried to outshout me. I had to put it firmly that I am dictating the order and not accepting his plea. I don’t blame them, they had not seen too many women. The initial six months to one year, there was a little apprehension, but I think that was gone after that period. Your work speaks for itself. I’ll not complain about that. Ultimately, I had the best of rosters..PS: There are certain lawyers who become aggressive/raise their voices when they see a woman judge on the bench and I believe there were a couple of episodes in the recent past when you shut them down. How do you and other women judges deal with such situations in general?.Justice Palli: This last episode was that this lawyer had some axe to grind with the other counsel. I said, “As long as I am sitting here, I know how to run the court. You will not misbehave in my court, even with the other colleagues. So if you don't apologise I will put it in the order. Then you will suffer the consequences." I was very clear, though I did not finally put it [on record] because they came in and tendered an apology in my chamber, so I left it there.But this happens a lot with lady judges and they have to face this quite often. They have to be firm in their work. They have to speak and they have to be thorough. They must know more than that lawyer because only then you can put somebody in their place..PS: You are known to have a good temperament in court. With the amount of work pressure, how do you maintain your calm and composure?.Justice Palli: That comes naturally to me. I will not say that I have done anything special for that. I am temperamentally like that. I have always believed that women are better multitaskers. I didn't take any pressure. I knew what I was doing and I was doing it there and then, so that is why there was no stress..PS: Now that you have demitted office, there are 39 judges in the Delhi High Court, of which only 9 are women. The situation in other High Courts is even worse. What do you think needs to be done to increase the representation of women on the bench?.Justice Palli: I think the pool is increasing day by day. As far as the judges coming from the services are concerned, they are going to increase. I was the head of the selection committee, we were getting 50 per cent girls in the Delhi Judicial Services and the Delhi Higher Judicial Services. So that pool will anyway increase.I have always believed that you have to have more women on the bench because that will change the perception of the common man. Women bring a different perspective to matrimonial matters and other important matters. You can't have women judges just because you want women. That can't be the ground. Ultimately, they're going to decide on people's lives, decide big issues..I really don't know the intricacies of why they were opposing it so much..PS: Recently, efforts were made to increase the representation of women in the Delhi High Court Bar Association, culminating in a Supreme Court order calling for 30 per cent reservation in Delhi bar bodies. What do you think of the move and the staunch opposition from sections of the bar?.Justice Palli: The move, I must say, is very good…When a newly enrolled person comes, he or she either sees the bar association or the judges (positions of power). So, if the bar association is rowdy and there are not enough women there, it will have an impact. So that's a very good move. Now on the opposition, I don't want to comment on it. I think that will not be correct for me to say anything. I really don't know the intricacies of why they were opposing it so much. The move is welcome, and I think it will go a long way in promoting younger girls to join the profession because a lot of girls think that it's not the right profession for them..Today, I have no hesitation in saying that we are the best of friends....PS: Justice Jyoti Singh and yourself were fierce competitors as lawyers doing service matters and you were elevated to the bench at the same time. How was that professional relationship?.Justice Palli: We were staunch opposites because we were being engaged by opposite parties. It did get carried outside courtrooms too.But I came on the bench earlier, and when she came to the bench, we became the best of friends. Today, I have no hesitation in saying that we are the best of friends. There's no doubt about it. We always say that our destiny was joined. In the beginning, we were competitive because we were the only two there. We were not the best of friends because of that reason…We were the only two back then, if we had four or five women lawyers, maybe we would have still flocked together. We were young and it was very competitive..PS: As a lawyer, you were instrumental in winning two cases in the Delhi High Court, which ensured Permanent Commission for women in the Indian Army. Can you describe how that case progressed?.She's stupid. What kind of a matter is she doing? Nobody is going to take women permanently in the Army...Justice Palli: Initially, as I said, I started as a panel counsel. I was doing some matters for the Union of India. In my view, when I started this Permanent Commission matter, everybody thought, “She's stupid. What kind of a matter is she doing? Nobody is going to take women permanently in the Army.” We started in 2003. You can restrict the number if you want lesser women, but you can't say that we will take you for ten to fifteen years, use you as a showpiece on Republic Day and other places and then throw you out. Where will they go at 40? The first matter I did was Babita Puniya, and she was my junior. We had filed it as a PIL because no lady officer was initially willing to come forward. Half the people didn't know; they thought she was a lady officer. She was a lawyer and she was my junior. The PIL was filed in her name and today Babita Puniya is also a judicial officer. I remember we were hardly taking fees, and there were some benches that were not so receptive. They would state that it’s a policy matter and they cannot get into the Army matter. Affidavits were being filed that if we make women permanent in the Army, they will go and command the troops, which the troops from rural backgrounds will not accept. But ultimately, we succeeded. My argument was that you can't have different criteria. If you think they are fit for a job, then take them till the end. At least make them pensionable. You can't throw them out. That was the landmark or the high point of my career because this was something I believed in. One of those benches was about to dismiss it, but they realised that I was not going to give up because my point was very logical.It’s a very satisfying feeling as a lawyer. Because of you, everybody's vision slowly opens and now if there is young girl child who wants to join the Army, she knows at least she'll have a permanent job..PS: You were elevated to the bench quite late, at the age of 54. How did that happen?.Justice Palli: Before I got elevated, April 2013 was the last batch (of appointments) from Delhi High Court. Then in 2014, before our names could be sent, the National Judicial Appointments Commission (NJAC) issue blocked the whole thing for one-and-a-half years. It took time. When I was already 54, I knew I was getting in late. I thought, I have said yes, let me try this also. And I am glad I did. .PS: During the second wave of COVID-19, you sat with Justice Sanghi and heard petitions filed by hospitals and people who were in desperate need of oxygen and medicines. Would you say that was the most important time in your career as a judge?.Justice Palli: Of course! That is the time when we were able to help Delhi. We had to take a very strong stand. I remember working the whole day, sitting till 10-10:30 PM. Times were so difficult, a very depressing phase, but we knew we had to stand together and help Delhi.I think if we had taken a stand at that stage that it is a policy matter, maybe things would have been worse. We said policies can wait but lives can't. It was a very difficult phase, not only judicially, but also mentally. It would take a toll on me at times. I would get a little shattered in the evening, but my family stood by me..PS: In your relatively short tenure, you were part of one five-judge bench and three full benches, out of which two you have authored. How was that experience leading the bench as a woman? .Justice Palli: Very nice. Five-judge benches are very rare. This is what it shows, that women are being trusted now. I was given to lead those benches because our body of work in the years preceding had proved that we would be able to do it correctly, and we delivered. I think my five-judge judgment came within one month of reserving it...If we could be trusted, then I am sure more women will be…Earlier, when full benches were there, we did not have women leading them. Now you will find more. We will have more coming. That shows a transition..PS: The Delhi High Court was criticised for its handling of cases last year - some of them politically sensitive. The Supreme Court also frowned upon some of the orders passed, calling one "atrocious". What are your thoughts?.Justice Palli: It may be just by chance that they were criticised. I think Delhi High Court judges are doing exceptionally well; at least, I would want to believe it. Delhi may be noticed more. I am sure in other High Courts also, judgments are being overturned and even bigger mistakes were made. Delhi has some important matters and is always noticed more. I don't think there was any special agenda either from any side or that there was any special reason for that. I can't answer more than that..PS: How do you think live streaming video conferencing of cases has affected judges? Did you feel the need to think twice before making an observation? How it has helped the system?.Justice Palli: It has definitely helped. We have seniors arguing from abroad. Your accessibility to the court has improved. There is one thing that the lawyers need to be told: they have to be in court sometimes. In the last few months, when I started seeing lawyers appearing only through mobiles, I started saying, “Please, don't do that.” Otherwise, over all, it has been a helpful system. It should be used in a more fair and more systematic manner. As far as becoming more conscious of what you're speaking, anybody in the public can see it. You can't just make random statements. It is not like a playground. You make a statement and then say, “no, this is not in order." At least if I have said something, I would normally put it in the order unless it is something like telling a lawyer they are wrong. That's a different thing, but otherwise you have to be careful, because ultimately, even if it's not there in the order, the common man sitting there will note it. You have to be conscious when you are doing that duty..PS: What are your plans now? Would you take up an official post-retirement position if offered one?.I was a senior counsel before my elevation...I think I am starting this week only..Justice Palli: I have already made it clear that I am starting my practice. When something is offered, we will see. I will cross the bridge when it comes. I was a senior counsel before my elevation, and I am very familiar with the apex court. So I think I am starting this week only.